Oh, how often a discussion on feminism turns to the inevitably stupid counter argument that if men were really in charge, they wouldn’t have any disadvantages in society at all. I can’t count the times this has come up when I’ve tried to make the point that most of the problems men suffer in society comes from the same misogynistic patriarchy that women have to deal with more overtly. Every time, though, it never ceases to amaze me. Not only because I can’t believe I have to explain the fact that the system was not built to benefit men over women and that it just turned out that way, but also at how badly the person who brought it up seems to want to be seen as uniquely oppressed.
You have to ask yourself: why would anyone WANT to be oppressed?
There’s a great guide to what privilege is and what it means here, which I find is my favorite essay to point others too when they find that they’re having a difficult time understanding what privilege is. It’s especially good at explaining why privilege is invisible and why the privileged can seem like such jerks sometimes. I have it bookmarked for just such occasions where I feel I have to explain to others why they aren’t being very empathetic towards victims of oppression.
It’s not because they’re inherently bad people. It’s just because they can’t even conceive of the disadvantages others face because they won’t ever have to experience them. The dog in the linked article is the perfect example of someone who will never understand what kind of discomfort and hardship can come from being below privilege because it is so far out of their realm of possible experience. They don’t even know what cold is.
So, because they have no frame of reference, and no way of really gaining that particular frame of reference, they don’t see the discomfort others go through on a day-to-day basis, or it being the result of the world seeming to be tailor made for their convenience. The privileged see other people and assume that their hardships are the same or equal to their own already.
And when they see others trying to fix problems completely foreign to theirs, they either don’t know what those others are “complaining” about, or they assume those problems don’t even exist. They even get indignant when they see fixes for the problems they think are imaginary, because they see those fixes as inequalities in a system they think has always been fair to them. Think of every person who has ever had a problem with affirmative action. It’s because they see that inequality fix as a special advantage, thinking that the people benefiting are being unfair and trying to get results without actually earning them.
Thus, we start to see the rise of those in privileged seats in society start to form groups talking about all of the unique problems they face and insisting that they are oppressed too, because if they pretend to be oppressed just as they think others are, they think they’ll get some cushy advantages as well. It’s not about being truly concerned with the disadvantages that they have in society and really trying to fix them. Otherwise they would be feminists and civil rights activists and gay rights activists too. No, these people are far more concerned with the benefits they think they’ll receive if they cry and whine and make a scene a bit.
That’s why you still have MRAs talking about the draft, even though that was found to be illegal and done away with decades ago, why they still talk about child custody unfairness, even though the past few years have seen quite the pendulum swing back in men’s favor in that respect, and why they still talk about the lack of women serving in the military, even though feminism has been making great strides in that area. They even want the things they’re complaining about to persist, mostly because they believe the military related inequality would give them leverage for getting what they want from women (i.e.: “I fought in a war to your benefit. Sleep with me.”). They merely want the fixes that other groups get so that they can continue to play on the uneven playing field they have been, all while being completely ignorant of the slope.
Really, if I didn’t have such a thing for arguing, I would have stopped trying to make willfully ignorant douchebags aware of their privilege long ago. It’s obvious that they don’t want to be aware of it, so why should I enlighten them?
Edit: I want to clarify here that I do not deny men have problems as a class, or that there are issues that we can work on regarding injustices that men face. A comment below seemed to believe that I exhibited privilege in denying that men have disadvantages and that I thought they were complaining about nothing. The truth is I believe there are many things men face as a whole that are problematic – most of which stems from the very same circumstances as misogyny – but I do not believe the modern MRM has even attempted to do more about those problems than try blame women and feminism for them. The commenter below has done nothing whatsoever but convince me of more of the same, and thus strengthen my impression that the MRM is less a movement going forward than a few folks who don’t like the fact that more people are making their lives better at the expense of the old biased power system.
entropistanon 
Dec 11, 2013 @ 14:47:32
“It’s obvious that they don’t want to be aware of it, so why should I enlighten them?”
I think the same thing about you. There exists as much or more ‘female privilege’ as ‘male privilege’. You are indignant about MRA’s because our fixes are for problems you think are imaginary or you see the fixes as inequalities in a system that has always been fair to you.
Dec 11, 2013 @ 15:55:23
I don’t think the system has always been fair to me or anyone else, and that’s why I’m working to fix it through all of these other legitimate movements. I also recognize that I may be privileged in various ways as just about everyone is, but “female privilege” is not something I can say I have. I love how you’ve assumed I’m female just so you can claim I’m far more privileged than you in a tired race to the bottom about who is more oppressed. Thanks for proving my point.
Dec 11, 2013 @ 16:25:32
You can’t fix a problem that you have not properly identified.
Dec 11, 2013 @ 21:50:44
Oh? What’s the “proper” identification, if I may ask?
Dec 11, 2013 @ 23:31:41
There is no simple answer to such a simple question. I have my opinions, you have your opinions. Your guesses don’t trump my guesses, my guesses don’t trump your guesses.
What I do know is that any SOLUTION proposed at this point will be greatly flawed because we have not properly identified the problems.
Dec 12, 2013 @ 17:42:55
So, in your opinion, what are the benefits of the “female privilege” you mentioned earlier?
Dec 12, 2013 @ 18:03:41
Big tent simple answer, Feminism.
Women have had a very significant social movement and well funded lobbying bloc dedicated to the promotion of women for 40 years now. Everything feminism has done from voting rights to “Women in STEM” has created privileges for women. Some of the privilege are trivial, some are not.
Some specific examples:
Men pay for their right to vote by signing draft cards (selective service). Women have no such cost.
Women have 3-4 post conception options to legally abdicate parental obligations. Men have 0.
Women out number men in higher education almost 2 to 1, and the biggest gender issue is getting more women into STEM, not more men into college.
Default custody to the mother in divorce.
It is important to note that I’m not trying to play oppression Olympics or denying that women face issues. Both men and women face issues, only addressing the issues of one gender will only make the problem worse. We need to address the issues faced by both men and women.
Take Higher Education. Women’s low number in STEM is something worth noting and doing something about. It is a real issue. It is not the only issue. We could address a great many gendered problems in higher ed by expanding Title IX. Not just to STEM, but STEM, Women’s Studies, Teaching, Nursing, Art, Literature, Business, Cosmetology and basket weaving.
Dec 12, 2013 @ 18:42:24
And I agree with you wholeheartedly. Unfortunately what you’re forgetting here is that men’s and women’s problems are inexorably linked through a system that views women incapable or unsuited for certain things and men as the inevitable leader. If we get rid of that system and all that goes with it, a lot of the problems men face would be obliterated with a lot of the problems women face as well. Feminism against patriarchy helps all genders.
I don’t know any man who had to sign a draft card recently, because the draft was deemed illegal and abolished decades ago. If young men in your area are still being subjected to that, then I think you have a pretty good discrimination case against the government.
I don’t know how men could possibly get any post-conception options of termination, because at that point the woman’s body is the only body being affected here. I don’t see how men could get post-conception termination options unless he was legally able to control a woman’s body and what she wants to do with it, which would be a pretty despicable thing to do.
Default custody to the mother isn’t really a problem when you consider that the pendulum has swung back towards men’s favor when they bother to file for custody in the first place.
And what are MRAs doing to raise the number of men going to college? I would love to be involved with those efforts as a staunch feminist. If you can give me any details of where these efforts are being performed and what it takes to sign up, I would be very grateful.
Women in STEM often get harassed and discriminated against for their gender, so it’s no wonder that feminists are working on it, but is there any reason to believe that fewer men are going to college in the first place because the women harass them and tell them they don’t belong in academia? What about even higher education? Men are dominating grad school classes, because women are now expected to go to college to earn access to the most menial of receptionist jobs, but the men that go to college tend to have higher ambitions. Is regular four-year college really an advantage and privilege when you take that into account?
Dec 12, 2013 @ 19:10:47
Men and women’s problems are inexorably linked. We are disagreeing on how they are linked. I’m not disputing that women are viewed as incapable or unsuited for certain things. This is true. Men are also viewed as incapable or unsuited for certain things. We can not really break either gender stereotype without breaking both.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscription_in_the_United_States
The draft is not currently active, but men are still required to register for the draft (selective service)
I agree that giving a man the option or ability to control a woman’s body is just unacceptable. There are other possibilities. Legal Paternal Surrender. Give men the option to say “I consented to sex, not parenthood. I have no obligations or rights to the child I did not consent to parent”. The man has no say at all over the choice the woman makes about her own body, but the man is not held hostage to her choice either.
Do you have documentation to back up that men whom file for custody are getting it? It goes against the research I’ve done, but I’m always interested in more and better information.
I agree that MRA’s should be doing more to get more men in college. The point I was writing about was female privilege, you seem to be in agreement that this is truly a piece of female privilege.
Just because harassment of women has been studied and documented is no reason to believe that men are not harassed. Absence of proof is not proof of absence. Men are not harassed in STEM, but they are harassed in nursing and teaching and women’s studies.
I have not looked at grad school, only undergraduate. I’ll take your claims at face value they seem very reasonable. Yes a 4 year degree is still an advantage. Men having an advantage in Grad school does not negate or diminish in any way the advantages women have at the undergraduate level. Just as women having an advantage at the undergraduate level does not diminish or negate the advantage men have at the graduate level. And yes, the menial job of receptionist making 40k is an advantage when you consider the non-bachelor degree alternatives of flipping burgers or cashier making 20k.
Dec 12, 2013 @ 22:51:39
Sure, men are also thought to be incapable of certain things, but those things are usually considered to be less important or not important at all. I think part of breaking both stereotypes is recognizing that the stereotypes surrounding men make what they do and how they operate much more important that what women do and how they operate.
Very well, the draft could still happen if say an invasion or major world war happened. Again, I ask you where the MRA legal battles are happening over this issue and how I can join. I think this is a very important issue and I’d like to help.
For that matter, are there any legal battles regarding a man’s right to invoke his lack of consent to parenthood? Again, and issue I would very much be interested in helping with.
The point of my post was the invisibility of privilege and how it explains how a lot of MRAs do not seem to want to solve the problems they constantly decry. I think that everyone has certain privileges to some degree, but I also think that white heterosexual males have the most privilege in society. No, it does not erase their hardships, but it also doesn’t mean that none of the other social movements are helping (or at least trying to help) alleviate those hardships.
You listed feminism as the first and foremost privilege women have, but feminism was just there to help level the playing field. In fact, most of these issues that you’ve mentioned predate feminism and are even some that feminism has tried to fix by proxy.
http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2013/07/02/the-rise-of-single-fathers/
I’m not saying that the problem of single fathers rarely getting custody is over – after all, it is only 8%. We still have a lot of work to do. However, increases are being noted, and we’re getting there, mostly due to how women work now and are being seen less and less as the primary caregivers. I’m down with that battle too.
I never said that harassment of men never happens, but I have doubts about women in the fields doing it. More often, when that harassment happens, it’s from other men who think that the men partaking in these studies are less manly and doing things unworthy of male attention. I’d say if you wanted male harassment to stop, you should probably talk to other men about how discouraging men from partaking in any activity is not a good thing.
Dec 13, 2013 @ 01:40:51
I disagree that “men’s work” is seen as more important than “women’s work”. To the extent that it is true it is an affect of feminism trying to convince people that women are oppressed and being expected to preform “women’s work” is some how lesser.
None of the issues exist in a vacuum. The draft as the cost of the vote is reasonable. Giving women the rights of men with out the same costs as men is not. (I’m all for equality, but equality is equality in costs and benefits, not just benefits)
More men are getting custody, but why? Feminism is not arguing that it’s wrong to exclude men. Feminism is arguing that it’s wrong to place the burdens on women. It is all about benefits to women, and what ever happens to men is just a side affect. (I would like a link if you can show this assesment to be wrong)
Women are harassing men in “Women’s work”. They are just doing so differently than men harass women. That you don’t see it does not mean it’s not happening.
I agree the INTENT of feminism was to level the playing field. This is a good INTENT. The affect was to get women many of the benefits of being men, but almost none of the costs.
Finally, you keep asking about court cases. These things take money, lots and lots of money. It is just in the past few years that men’s rights have started to gain traction. It is just the past few years that men’s rights have gotten noticed. There was a Men’s Rights march in Vancouver, and another being planned for in the US, but this is the extent to which men’s rights issues have the funding to do campaigns and file suits or lobby for laws. 2nd wave feminism didn’t start off with spending millions of dollars lobbying for title IX or RoeVWade. It started with getting a few books published and building support. This is where men’s rights currently is, not spending millions on lobbying.
Dec 13, 2013 @ 02:56:46
So it comes down to what YOU think feminism is all about instead of listening to an actual feminist such as myself. I was wondering when you would come out with it.
Not only do you ignore the fact that “women’s work” has been seen as less important than “men’s work” for longer than feminism has existed, try to convince me that issues for men didn’t exist before feminism, and tell me that women have been harassing men in women-dominated fields when anyone can clearly see that men are the ones doing that to reinforce toxic ideas about masculinity, you’re trying to tell ME what a movement I am more familiar with is accomplishing and not accomplishing.
I gave you an opportunity to defend the MRM, asking what they have been doing to try to fix all the problems that you listed, and you haven’t given me a single reason to believe that any of you actually care. Hell, this feminist seems to care more about these things than you do. All you really seem interested in is blaming feminism for all the issues that you face, OR trying to insist that feminism do all the activism for you. At some point you have to realize how incredibly hypocritical and ridiculous that is.
But you won’t do that here anymore. I thought we were coming to a consensus, but while I was willing to concede that there are benefits to patriarchy that are afforded women (and even imply that feminists are entirely willing to give those up to achieve equality), you seem focused on ignoring basic history and power dynamics so that you can shift all the blame to women in society, and even their attempts to break out of their prescribed roles. So, this conversation is over
By the way, if you want women to be drafted too, then that’s entirely different problem altogether. Either you want no draft, or you want a draft to destroy the entirety of your society by sending EVERYONE off to die. Pick one option, because those are the only two ways that we can achieve equality. Personally, I’d prefer no one be conscripted into service, but…